Does God still punish those he loves?

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I was reading in Hebrews today and in Chapter 12, the chapter really talks a lot about things like: Do not lose heart, the Lord rebukes those he loves, he punishes everyone he accepts as a son, endure hardship as discipline etcs.
Gosh, I use to believe that God brought all the bad stuff, but I don't want to think that anymore.
I use to be in that mind set, if its good its from God if its bad its from the devil. Then I moved onto, if its good its from God if its bad its from God.
Now I don't know really what to think. Things just are??
So many of my Christian friends still think we are being punished for our own good.
Is God still in the process of disciplining those he loves? Help:eek:
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

The way I view it (right or wrong) is that we experience consequences from our choices and the choices of others. I view this as a positive. The consequences can be a motivation for movement toward a more positive direction. If I move in that direction, I can experience consequences that are more pleasant.

I remember being involved in sports as a teenager. When we were in training, we all used to chant "pain produces change" with a big smile on our faces (we were running cross country). It was a reminder to ourselves that although our muscles might not like the extra effort, eventually they would strengthen and help us perform better and faster. In some ways, I still see life a lot like that. My son likes Neitsche's (sp?) motto that says something to the effect of 'whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger.' He views the trials in his life as an opportunity for growth.

I think I have "issues" with the word "punished". It may just be personal, but the word brings up a negative image. When I use the words "discipline", or even "chastise", they bring up images of instruction or teaching. For some reason, "punish" doesn't bring up that sort of image.

Sorry for the ramble...Hope something I said actually made sense. :o

Paige

[Amie]

Nancy,

I think that the "chastening" in Hebrews 12 is specifically of Israel, which would ensure that the elect would accomplish that which they were chosen to accomplish.

I agree with Paige that today, consequences have already been set in place. I think that God created them, and he directed "cause and effect", and in that way, bad consequences come from Him. I don't think that it's the same as what the elect went through in the transition of the ages though.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Paige and Amie,
Its hard to think of a loving God that punishes. And yet,I consider myself a loving parent and have had to put lets say consequences in place.
I was wondering if that passage really applied to today? Its so hard to look at things still from a fulfillment view when 95% of the churches in this area anyway still don't teach the Bible that way.
So Lots of my friends still believe they are doing something wrong. That's why their life is so hard.
God is punishing them in some way. And that makes me so sad to know they feel that way.
Thanks
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

I don't think that the passages in Hebrews 12 were talking about anyone today, but about the elect. It was about making sure the deliverance of the New Covenant, in my opinion. It was about keeping them from returning again to the bondage of sin - and so the whole world remaining the same, know what I mean?

That was accomplished though.

I just wonder how many church leaders study the bible and things having to do with it, rather than studying the church doctrine. I remember that in the Churches of Christ (that I have experience with), I was encouraged just to ignore the Old Testament all together. As a matter of fact, there were stacks of these teeny New Testaments which were passed out.

I think that ignoring the Old Testament creates scads of problems in interpretation, but that's just me.

I agree that it's sad that folks feel punished by God. As if he doesn't accept them as they are - and they honestly can't be anything but what they are. I am willing to bet that being around you will only help them to see unconditional love :).

Amie

[Barry]

Hi all.
Punishment and discipline are "revelation" perspectives.

Discipline in the transition was a perspective within the moving out of sin conscience from the veil which was the flesh of Christ.

Punishment is not quite the same but is still associated with and for a beneficial final outcome. It was still a burning away that would in the final analysis benefit the person.
Punishment is the "revelation of wrath" perspective of the age ending consummation.

Discipline is the "revelation of grace" perspective of the age ending consummation.

This discipline related directly to their first fruits role.
They held fast firm until the end. Then they rested from their works.

Discipline IMHO exists today but in the general terms of a loving Father who has already brought us into His new age.

Making a doctrine out of it would IMHO be a mistake. "Shame" would not be the point to discipline. Such discipline would not relate to "sin" or "transgression" but growth and development and transformation.
Some of this would be consequence.
Some of this is a gentile voice that says, "I've put better than this within you my dear child. Let it come forth".

Barry