All families blessed

[Laren]

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Wondering who the "all families of the earth" are?

Is this us, you, and me. Through the fufillment and completion of the old, we and everyone are blessed through the new.

or


Is the seed of Abraham, only Christ and the first fruits; and those blessed through the first fruits are old covenant Israel (harvest)?

Reading Max King's book, and he seees the harvest as "life from among the dead", dead referring to old testament Israel covenant people.


Any thots?

[dwhochner]

Laren,

Some may not agree with me but I would say the latter.

Donald

[Barry]

Hi Laren.

"Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Abraham did a lot of traveling. As he traveled there were people who were affected by him. That is to say that the "them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee" is more than and large than any one ethnic group.

So then why would we see "all families of the earth be blessed" only limited to one ethnic group?

God has something greater in mind than the blessing of one ethnic group even though God worked through one ethnic group to accomplish His goals. This is from the natural to the spiritual.

Barry

[Amie]

Laren,

Max's book is an excellent starting point for sure. I am sure that he has grown within his view over the years as we all do.

As for me, I feel that "death" was more than just Israel's problem. Would you agree?

The "seed of Abraham" is an interesting thing. "Seed" is singular in the text, yet in the Old Testament they would number the sand of the sea. Let's say that Jesus is the singular "seed" of Abraham per inheritance, and then all who entered into death with him (the first century church) were inclusively the "seed". Since they were then the "bride" and "groom", and we the supposed offspring of their union, then would we not as children (family) be counted as the seed? Seriously, I'm wondering thoughts on that one.

I did hear Max say that he is a proponent of "all" meaning "all".

What are you finding?

By the way, the next Transformations course is beginning August 25th. I know that you mentioned that it might interest you.. if you're still interested and have maybe private questions - PM me :).

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

Max's book is an excellent starting point for sure. I am sure that he has grown within his view over the years as we all do.

As for me, I feel that "death" was more than just Israel's problem. Would you agree?

The "seed of Abraham" is an interesting thing. "Seed" is singular in the text, yet in the Old Testament they would number the sand of the sea. Let's say that Jesus is the singular "seed" of Abraham per inheritance, and then all who entered into death with him (the first century church) were inclusively the "seed". Since they were then the "bride" and "groom", and we the supposed offspring of their union, then would we not as children (family) be counted as the seed? Seriously, I'm wondering thoughts on that one.

I did hear Max say that he is a proponent of "all" meaning "all".

What are you finding?

By the way, the next Transformations course is beginning August 25th. I know that you mentioned that it might interest you.. if you're still interested and have maybe private questions - PM me :).

Amie


Hi Amie, I came to studying fufilled grace, after first having studied universal reconciliation/salvation for three or four years first. The greatest thing I came away with is that God is LOVE, love never fails, and God is sovereign. I personally see all families as being blessed as being all of us, those who live in the age of grace, and God is continuing to love us.

But I am trying to understand other's views too.

What I struggle the most with, is how is God dealing with us now in light of fufilled grace. It is extremely hard to accept that I don't need to die to the flesh anymore, that I don't have sin, that I already am transformed into his image.

I recently read Barry's infinite grace opening page, on we are discoverers. I like that.

It's hard for me to accept that it really is finished.

Scripturally, fufilled grace in my opinion is sound. Now I just am struggling with what does this mean to me, to my family, to my enemies, etc.

By the way, i'll look more into the transformation course stuff and get back to u if i have any questions.


Also, what does it mean that Jesus is the savior of all men, especially believers.

Seems to me, in light of fufilled grace, he didnt' save all, he saved his first fruits; but the rest went through the wrath of God.

If saved in this verse is in regards to reconciliation, I can see that.

thanks to all who have responded.


laren

[Amie]

Laren,

Everything was ultimately accomplished at the cross, but because of that, the old world would end and everything that end meant would come to pass. I see this outworking very much the same in that because the new world has been accomplished, that growth within that world is inevitable.

If you ask me, I feel blessed to be "called to service" within this world. Everything is at our fingertips - anything that we might first imagine, we might also participate in bringing to pass. I love the "discoverer" example as well. We really have arrived in this new world and there is plenty of work here - plenty of growing to do, plenty of healing to do, plenty of loving. We surely have been enabled to co-create.

I love how Doug Reed illustrated the first-fruits in his conference presentation. Though the lamb was placed upon the alter for acceptance/consumption by God, the stones holding up the alter were 12 in number and were consumed along with the sacrifice (correct me if I heard you wrong Doug). So they were part of the offering, and the offering was accepted on behalf of all sinners.

Those who believed Jesus were saved in that they would not suffer in the passing of their world. All of humanity was saved from death. Yet there still remains the personal salvation that knowing the unconditional and immeasurable love of God brings. If you order the CD, you'll hear an extremely passionate story from Allen Brooks which is exactly that imo. The story of his personal salvation -- years after his being a Christian and Pastor.

If Jesus was the son of God (and we agree that he was I think :)), and the elect were counted as the seed in him, then we as their offspring must be sons of God. As a friend of mine pointed out, dogs have puppies, cats have kittens.. every creature gives birth according to it's likeness. Dogs don't have kittens after all. So, there cannot be a doubt that we are God's children. Though we didn't actually receive the inheritance that our parents did, we dwell there - know what I mean? Now, every person is "family". Though it was true before Christ, it was not known.

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

Yet there still remains the personal salvation that knowing the unconditional and immeasurable love of God brings. If you order the CD, you'll hear an extremely passionate story from Allen Brooks which is exactly that imo. The story of his personal salvation -- years after his being a Christian and Pastor.

Amie


That sounds interesting. I think it is along the lines of exactly what i am struggling with. Personal salvation, a message we still can take to the world. One not of believe or burn forever; but believe and experience HIM. Experience HIM, and share HIM to others.

Peace, joy and righteousness now.

[Paige]

Peace, joy and righteousness now.

Thats it, Laren. I think we're all (here) still in the process of working out the details in how to share it. So, we are right there with you in the struggle. I know I feel it very personally too, as I try and share the way I believe today with certain family members who are very traditional.

Paige

[davo]

Those who believed Jesus were saved in that they would not suffer in the passing of their world. All of humanity was saved from death. Yet there still remains the personal salvation that knowing the unconditional and immeasurable love of God brings.Amie… yes, it is so important to differentiate these things:

The term "salvation" in the Bible is interchangeable, and is defined by the given situation to which it is applicable. Its most base meaning is "deliverance".

Temporal Salvation:
If someone were to rescue you out of harm's way it would be said that you have been "saved".

Redemptive Salvation:
Salvation is not just redemption, though redemption is a salvation, but from what? – from the separating power of sin through the unilateral forgiveness of Christ. The only part we played in the salvation that redemption brought was the sin that made it necessary.

Sanctifying Salvation:
Having your mind renewed to this redemption is a salvation. Going through a constant transformation of understanding truth brings a salvation. When you go from believing something untrue to believing something that is true it delivers and transforms us.

So what we believe can bring a salvation, but it is a salvation of the renewing of the mind that saves the soul. It does this by changing the way we view God, ourselves and others, bringing the realisation that God is at peace with us and has no wrath towards us.

Again, it is a mistake to apply "salvation" as ONLY meaning or referring to the redemption of the world. There are many scriptures where salvation is qualified as to its specific meaning. Many show that a personal commitment to seeking truth will bring with it a salvation in a changed mindset. However, the salvation that brought man's redemption has absolutely nothing to do with man's seeking whatsoever.

Thus based on the redemption of the world through Christ all are in that sense saved, yet as to knowing this redemption personally, then no; all are not saved. And yet the more we grow in Christ's grace, the more deliverance [salvation] we experience from the toxicities of life. Knowing these things gives us an incredibly relevant message to share.

Redemptive Salvation = the forgiveness [deliverance] of sins.

Sanctifying Salvation = the transformation [deliverance] of the inner life.

Temporal Salvation = literal escape [deliverance] out of harm's way.

[Amie]

Davo,

I missed your post before. I love your choice of wording:


Redemptive Salvation = the forgiveness [deliverance] of sins.

Sanctifying Salvation = the transformation [deliverance] of the inner life.

Temporal Salvation = literal escape [deliverance] out of harm's way.

I just HAD to let you know that :).

Amie

[davo]

Hi Amie, thanks for that -- I've teased that out a little further since then over here:

http://www.pantelism.com/SALVATIONWhatItMeans.htm

[Amie]

Hi Amie, thanks for that -- I've teased that out a little further since then over here:

http://www.pantelism.com/SALVATIONWhatItMeans.htm

Have you shared this in other company? I'm now completely confused about how misunderstood you are in some arenas...