The seed

[Laren]

I have another question, but first i'll try to summarize what i believe is correct in my understanding.

Jesus Christ is the true seed. He came in the flesh, under law, as the seed. He lived by faith, thus fufilling the law. The seed had to die in order to bear fruit. He was the forerunner. He paved the way, a life of faith and trust in the Father for righteousness, rather than through human effort.

The first fruits (church), also, are considered the seed by participating in the death of Christ (death of death, sin death) by faith in Christ. This was a baptism into his death.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


The first fruits saints, were baptized by the holy spirit and fire (the process of sin death).

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


What I wonder, is; are the first fruits the only heirs of the promise (with Christ) or

are the "all Israel, the harvest", also heirs, but only after their fiery death (second death).

In other words, were both the first fruits (church) and the "all Israel" baptized with the Holy spirit and fire.

Is it called second death, because it is death of death (sin death ), but second in order, for the "all Israel",

and the first death was for the "first fruits".

In other words, are the first fruits "sin death" and the "all Israel" sin death the same, both functioning to strip one from "self righteousness", with all the works of the law burned up and saved as through fire.

Were both the first fruits and the harvest heirs, and through them all families blessed.




As a side note, I found this when looking into the word blessed.

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


blessed:

H1288
בּרך
bârak
baw-rak'
A primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason): - X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

[Amie]

Laren,

I apologize ahead of time that my comment isn't going to be as detailed as usual. My husband is on vacation this week :). I wrote a short something on blessing titled "Bended Knee" that you might enjoy(http://womenbeyond.com/?c=127&a=1141).

In the beginning of Romans 9, Paul says that all Israel (by blood) is not Israel (by faith) yet he calls them inclusively "the seed". He also clarifies that from the many children of Abraham, some would be called. This doesn't mean that the blessing isn't inherited by we families of the earth because of all Israel, it just means that some would be called to service and also salvation from suffering the wrath.

All Israel would be saved and receive their inheritance. Only the called would be aware of it.

That's my understanding right now, I would love to hear from others and more of your thoughts :).

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

I apologize ahead of time that my comment isn't going to be as detailed as usual. My husband is on vacation this week :). I wrote a short something on blessing titled "Bended Knee" that you might enjoy(http://womenbeyond.com/?c=127&a=1141).

In the beginning of Romans 9, Paul says that all Israel (by blood) is not Israel (by faith) yet he calls them inclusively "the seed". He also clarifies that from the many children of Abraham, some would be called. This doesn't mean that the blessing isn't inherited by we families of the earth because of all Israel, it just means that some would be called to service and also salvation from suffering the wrath.

All Israel would be saved and receive their inheritance. Only the called would be aware of it.

That's my understanding right now, I would love to hear from others and more of your thoughts :).

Amie

Hi Amie and anyone else, I've been thinking more about this verse in Genesis 12.

do you see this verse as the "families blessed" as you, me, and all who have ever lived since the consumation as the one's blessed through Abrhaham

Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

or do you see the "all families" as the "all Israel" who received their salvation at the consumation.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[Amie]

Laren,

It's the same. If Israel was dispersed into the gentiles, then the gentiles must have been brought into covenant for all Israel to be saved as prophesied.

The "firstfruits" were also "the body of Christ". This was individually entered into during the interim. Their acceptance meant the acceptance of the full harvest and there were representatives there on behalf both all Israel and all of the gentiles. They were counted as the "seed" in that the blessing would enter through them.

A blessing entering in through someone never meant that no one else would benefit from it. I did a short article hopefully as an example of that here: http://www.womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1143

Amie

[Barry]

Hi Laren,
you asked:
Quote:
In other words, were both the first fruits (church) and the "all Israel" baptized with the Holy spirit and fire.
End quote.

The baptism of the H.S. is the human perspective of the outpouring of the H.S. (God's perspective).

The outpouring of the HS was a universal act "upon all flesh".





Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear [they saw the testimony or evidence that it had happened].

Peter had understood this to mean circumcised only.
Peter was forced to see a universal outpouring:

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on [fell on in not baptized or poured upon but empowering. Empowering was the testimony thereof.] all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost [at pentecost]
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning [empowering to speak in tongues].
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift [empowered to speak in tongues] as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The pouring forth of the spirit was a universal act upon all people that was a full measure taking place at pentecost and gave an continual result. Those that believed were variously and optionally empowered to testify accordingly.

The baptism of fire was judgment.


Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.


Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Mark mentions no baptism of fire and no judgment thereof.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Again no baptism of fire and so no context of judgment, of unquenchable fire or burning up the chaff.

So then IMHO the baptism of the HS was comprehensive one time act of pentecost and the baptism of fire was the destruction of Jerusalem and the ending of the old economy.

Blessings Barry
Barry

[Amie]

Barry,

I think that a full measure of the HS was given to a small portion of flesh at pentacost, though by it being given to them, it was in the process of being given to everyone.. did I make sense? hahaha!

The "presence" came through the church until the coming was complete. The baptism of fire will have then begun at pentacost and finished at the destruction of Jerusalem.

So I agree and disagree... at the same time. Now go think on that one! lol!

Amie

[Laren]

I would agree, that we are and all will continue to be blessed through the promises to Abraham fulfilled in Christ.

Barry, what does judgment must begin at the house of God mean to you?? Do you see the fiery trials the first fruits went through as judgment??

Laren

[Barry]

Barry,

I think that a full measure of the HS was given to a small portion of flesh at pentacost, though by it being given to them, it was in the process of being given to everyone.. did I make sense? hahaha!

The "presence" came through the church until the coming was complete. The baptism of fire will have then begun at pentacost and finished at the destruction of Jerusalem.

So I agree and disagree... at the same time. Now go think on that one! lol!

Amie

That's interesting Amie.

Pour fourth in the Greek is a complete action. That is nothing else was left to pour fourth thereafter. A full action not a measure.
This full action (like the blood of Christ, once for all. IE shed his blood), was at Pentecost poured forth on all flesh even the Gentiles. That is what we get from Acts.

The indwelling came at conversion. The indwelling was the result of the availability of the Spirit having been poured forth upon all flesh both Jew and Gentile at pentecost.
That is my view at present from Acts.

Overview:
Miracles or empowering or the coming upon or falling upon of the spirit took place prior to the outpouring of the HS. But not indwelling as in the interim period. So then:
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The HS did not indwell them prior to pentecost.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This was a complete act upon all flesh including the Gentiles.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out [IE at penticost] the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

The HS fell upon the Gentiles and they spoke in tongues to show that at Penticost the HS that was poured forth upon all flesh (Acts 2:17) included the Gentiles only.

The baptism of the HS is like a coin in a glass that is baptized when the water is poured forth from above.
There was a pre pouring forth and a past pouring fourth. That is not yet and then already done. Will pour forth and then has poured forth.

Some of this will agree and some perhaps will differ :).
This would not IMHO nullify a growing presence as you have indicated.
Barry

[Barry]

Barry, what does judgment must begin at the house of God mean to you?? Do you see the fiery trials the first fruits went through as judgment??

Laren

I lean toward the "house of God" refering to the old covenant house of that time but am open on that point.

The fiery trials were definitely there. However I do not believe that the baptism of fire was directed directly toward the believing.
The context of Matthew chapter 3 and Luke chapter 3 seem very specific toward the burning up of the chaff.

Look and see whom John the baptizer was speaking to:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

These Pharisees and Sadducees would be baptised by Christ with both the HS and fire.
The HS was upon all flesh. The fire is directed toward the Chaff.
Every prophet preached salvation and judgment. This is what John was doing.
Mark does not mention "with fire" and so does not include "judgment" in his context [as per my first post].

This is a little interesting from Peter:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be [B]tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

IMHO yes, tried with fire as a Hebrew expression.

And again:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Scarcely is badly translated and should read "with difficulty". That meaning the difficulty of the suffering for Christ. That meaning:
Paraphrase:
"And if you think that the righteous are saved through suffering, just imagine the suffering that the ungodly will have to go through"

IMHO there was indeed a fiery trial of the first fruits. IMHO this is not in the same "magnitude" as the promised "baptism of fire".

Just my opinion,
Barry

[Amie]

I agree Barry,

I think it's a throwback to the fiery furnace in Daniel. Though they were cast into it, they did not burn.

Amie

[Laren]

I think there is a differnce between refiners fire and consuming destructive fire.

Somewhere, i think in Jeremiah there is a verse re: "you ignored the refining fire, and so now you will go into consuming fire". I'll look for it.

Laren

p.s. found it,

Jer 6:29 The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.

Jer 6:30 They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Jer 7:15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.'

Jer 7:20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

[Laren]

I wonder if judgment to begin first at house of God has something to do with

Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The gospel at first never went to the gentiles, until Paul's call.

[Barry]

I think there is a differnce between refiners fire and consuming destructive fire.

Somewhere, i think in Jeremiah there is a verse re: "you ignored the refining fire, and so now you will go into consuming fire". I'll look for it.

Laren

p.s. found it,

Jer 6:29 The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.

Jer 6:30 They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Jer 7:15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.'

Jer 7:20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.


Wow, that's a good verse. Will remember that one.

Maybe that can be likened to:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

They were either going to be transformed by losing that life prior to the end of the age or they would lose that life or "soul" catastrophically.

Barry

[Barry]

I wonder if judgment to begin first at house of God has something to do with

Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The gospel at first never went to the gentiles, until Paul's call.

Laren, I've heard some of both views. That being:
House of God was the church's purification.
House of God was the still standing tabernacle and it's people.

It seems to me that either one changes very little in the overall context there.
Perhaps others have some thoughts on this verse.

But I've taken this thread away from your "seed" study :)

Barry

[Amie]

I think there is a differnce between refiners fire and consuming destructive fire.

Somewhere, i think in Jeremiah there is a verse re: "you ignored the refining fire, and so now you will go into consuming fire". I'll look for it.

Laren

p.s. found it,

Jer 6:29 The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out.

Jer 6:30 They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

Jer 7:15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.'

Jer 7:20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

Could it be the same fire, some having found refinement, and some not?
I actually am revisiting this thread to talk more about "the seed", and after rereading that had that question :).


The first fruits (church), also, are considered the seed by participating in the death of Christ (death of death, sin death) by faith in Christ. This was a baptism into his death.


1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),
1Co 15:38 and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.
1Co 15:39 Not every flesh is the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
1Co 15:41 one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

If the seed could only be sown in the "natural body", then only those of the "natural body" could become the seed. The "natural body" imv, is the embodiment of humanity. Israel was the one called to the front of the class to stand as an example on behalf of everyone, so Israel is the body.
Gentiles could be grafted into the body during the transition, also becoming the seed.

Did the seed pre-exist this historically? Was it sown at creation? I think that in the least, it was sown in the "old creation", during the transition.

And what was this seed anyway? Who/what are the shoots/sprouts?

There were apparently two seeds:


Mat 13:24 He put before them another parable, saying: The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man sowing good seed in his fields.
Mat 13:25 But while the men were sleeping, one hostile to him came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away.
Mat 13:26 And when the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
Mat 13:27 And coming near, the slaves of the housemaster said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then from where does it have the darnel?
Mat 13:28 And he said to them, A man, an enemy did this. And the slaves said to him, Do you desire, then, that going out we should gather them?
Mat 13:29 But he said, No, lest gathering the darnel you should uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

I'm going to hang onto my thoughts for now because I need to go join my family for some quality time :). I would love to hear yours..

Amie

[Me Again]

In regards to the two fires: I think that the refiner's fire was that which over the centuries God used to discipline Israel. Numerous times they were judged, but were always restored to the Land. The Consuming Fire, or Lake of Fire, was the LAST Fire, putting an end to the old covenant world (Kosmos), the dead carcass. The dead carcass of Israel was "burned up" by the Roman Army in AD70, the Lake of Fire/God's consuming fire.

[Amie]

In regards to the two fires: I think that the refiner's fire was that which over the centuries God used to discipline Israel. Numerous times they were judged, but were always restored to the Land. The Consuming Fire, or Lake of Fire, was the LAST Fire, putting an end to the old covenant world (Kosmos), the dead carcass. The dead carcass of Israel was "burned up" by the Roman Army in AD70, the Lake of Fire/God's consuming fire.

Great point! :clap2: What about those who were "saved by faith"? It seems to me that they still walked through the fire, yet didn't suffer the loss therein having accepted that the Savior had come.


I have something to add concerning the "two seeds". It seems to me that there may be offspring of Adam (in his likeness) and then offspring of God (in his likeness). The marriage between the lamb (God's offspring) and the children of adam will have resulted in a new humanity.

Two mothers:


Hos 2:1 Say to your brothers, A people; and to your sisters, Mercy.
Hos 2:2 Strive! Strive with your mother, for she is not My wife, and I am not her husband. Therefore, let her put away her harlotries from her face, and her adulteries from between her breasts,
Hos 2:3 that I not strip her naked and set her out as in the day that she was born, and make her as the wilderness, and place her like a dry land, and kill her with thirst.
Hos 2:4 And I will not have pity for her sons, for they are the sons of harlotries.
Hos 2:5 For their mother has prostituted herself; she who conceived them has acted shamefully. For she said, I will go after my lovers who give my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.
Hos 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge your way with thorns, and I will wall up her wall, that she shall not find her paths.
Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them. And she shall look for them, but she shall not find them. Then she shall say, I will go and return to my first husband, for then it was better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her grain and wine and oil, and I multiplied her silver and the gold they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 So I will return and take My grain in its time, and My wine in its season. And I will take back My wool and My flax she uses to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now I will reveal her shamefulness to the eyes of her lovers, and not a man shall deliver her out of My hand.
Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her joy to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, of which she has said, They are my rewards that my lovers have given me. And I will set them for a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
Hos 2:13 And I will visit on her the days of the Baals in which she burned incense to them. Yea, she adorned herself with her nose rings, and her jewels, and she went after her lovers and forgot Me, says Jehovah.
Hos 2:14 Therefore, behold, I will lure her and bring her to the wilderness, and speak to her heart.
Hos 2:15 And from there I will give her vineyards to her, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope. And she shall answer there as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
Hos 2:16 And at that day, says Jehovah, you shall call Me, My husband; and you shall no more call Me, My Baal.
Hos 2:17 For I will take away the names of the Baals out of her mouth; and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
Hos 2:18 And in that day I will cut a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the birds of the heavens, and the creepers of the ground. And I will break the bow and the sword, and the battle out of the earth, and I will make them to lie down safely.
Hos 2:19 And I will betroth you to Me forever. Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in mercy, and in compassions.
Hos 2:20 I will even betroth you to Me in faithfulness. And you shall know Jehovah.
Hos 2:21 And it shall be in that day, I will answer, says Jehovah. I will answer the heavens, and they shall answer the earth.
Hos 2:22 And the earth shall hear the grain, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
Hos 2:23 And I will sow her to Me in the earth. And I will have mercy on No Mercy. And I will say to Not My People, You are My people! And they shall say, My God!

Two sons (seeds?):


Gal 4:22 For it has been written, Abraham had two sons, one out of the slave woman and one out of the free woman.
Gal 4:23 But, indeed, he of the slave woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise,
Gal 4:24 which things are being allegorized, for these are two covenants, one, indeed, from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery (which is Hagar,
Gal 4:25 for Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, and she slaves with her children),
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all;
Gal 4:27 for it has been written, "Be glad, barren one not bearing; break forth and shout, the one not travailing; for more are the children of the desolate rather than she having the husband." Isa. 54:1
Gal 4:28 But, brothers, we are children of promise according to Isaac.
Gal 4:29 But then, even as he born according to flesh persecuted the one according to Spirit, so it is also now.
Gal 4:30 But what says the Scripture? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for in no way shall the son of the slave woman inherit with the son of the free woman." Gen. 21:10
Gal 4:31 Then, brothers, we are not children of a slave woman but of the free woman.

Amie

[Me Again]

Great point! :clap2: What about those who were "saved by faith"? It seems to me that they still walked through the fire, yet didn't suffer the loss therein having accepted that the Savior had come.


Perhaps similar to the 3 men in the Furnace - came out untouched. Also, this perhaps is what Jesus meant by "losing your soul" in order to save it.



I have something to add concerning the "two seeds". It seems to me that there may be offspring of Adam (in his likeness) and then offspring of God (in his likeness). The marriage between the lamb (God's offspring) and the children of adam will have resulted in a new humanity.

Amie

Hmmm, something doesn't feel totally right about this last sentence, but I can't put my finger on it. I will say that it reminds me of the Genesis verse about the sons of God marrying the daughters of man.

[Amie]

Hmmm, something doesn't feel totally right about this last sentence, but I can't put my finger on it.

When I first began thinking about it, the idea that human beings could exist that are not God's offspring was an ugly one to me. Perhaps that is what you are finding? It still is to me too actually.

We may be able to resolve that in noting that Adam was called "son of God".

Just so you know why I'm mulling this stuff over, someone suggested from their view that humanity as a whole contained "the seed" from the beginning of the story.

As I flip through the pages, I'm finding two seeds. Even the idea that Jesus sifted seeds and cast off the "chaff" suggests it.

As well, a friend asked about God taking his own child as bride and how that seems funky. Having two seeds might solve that.

I don't know, and haven't drawn any conclusions.

Amie