Silence Demands An Answer:

[davo]

I have a simple thought as to the apparent and frightfull to some, "silence" post Parousia -- realized redemption -- all was complete, there was nothing left to say. :9_cool:

"Religion" took a while to gather up her feet and deliver what we know of her, following on somewhat later.

Any thoughts?

[Barry]

That's pretty awesome Davo.
What this may imply then is a whole new start. Is it possible that in the new start a refection of what had been needed to re-materialize for the outworking of the new age (continued transformation) [IE, learn what is]?
Barry

[Amie]

Davo,

This brings to mind "For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?" (Romans 3:3) I feel that it is our own ego that demands a further declaration of completion. To put it bluntly, it doesn't matter what we think or if it was proven to us - it was done. The whole point was not to prove something to humanity, it was to redeem humanity and it was done.

In the case of relationships and boundaries, if we begin to put up personal boundaries where we didn't before, the people around us will actually try harder before learning that their efforts are to no affect. Ie, if we allowed someone to use us to release rage (through our participation) and we suddenly stopped participating and began to respond calmly - they would work harder to get their payoff. Our consistancy only would win out...eventually.

Perhaps the completed work of God equates that consistancy in that no matter how hard religion works to bind people to its' laws, those people are still free.

Just some thoughts,

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

The main objection from futurists is that Polycarp was "a disciple of John," although it wasn't John who said so. IOW, anybody could, after the death of John could say that he studied under John, and that would somehow give him authority.

It is my suspicion that many of the futurist writings that we hold from early on were probably folks that were Judaizers, and wanted to deny the significance of the destruction of Jerusalem. Those preterists who wrote after the parousia most likely had their writings destroyed when Alexandria was burned by the Muslims. We know that Origen was claimed to have written over 6,000 books/booklets, and we have far less than that available.

In addition, the "church fathers" have been translated by futurists, who believe in endless torture. It is possible that many of the translations are flawed in such a way as to favor a futurist interpretation. Only preterists who are skilled in Latin, Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew would be able to challenge these things.

In summation, what I believe is that there were men wanting to take over the religion who wrote that the parousia had not occurred in AD70, there were writings that could have been destroyed in Alexandria by the Muslims, and modern translators have mistranslated many of the Fathers, as well as the Pseudopigrapha. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.

[Paige]

Ed,

You may well be right. After Friday night, I came to the conclusion that there is much that has happened historically that I have not a clue about. What is written down is only a glimpse, and it all depends on who is doing the writing.

Paige

[Barry]

IMO one of the most profound points in all of the bible is its silence. So deep is the meaning of this silence that it doesn't even bother to record the very end that consummates it's whole point.
It was satisfied to let history do it. This IMO speaks volumes.
That point being, "This is a whole new world now".
Barry

[ozark]

Here is an interesting quote by Larry Smith:

"Most of what the Church Fathers wrote still remains untranslated. There are 218 Latin and 166 Greek volumes that have not been translated. Therefore, we cannot be dogmatic in asserting what the early Church Fathers believed. The works that [Grant] Jeffrey studied come out to approximately 7,000 pages. While this seems like a lot, the untranslated Greek and Latin works 'weigh in at over a million pages.'"

If I have done my math right, that is less that 1%, and that is only the writings that have survived.

[Bill]

Ed,

I like what you've said on this. Here's an excerpt from my blog where I've said something similar. Also here's a link if anyone would like to read more.

http://billsbloggins.blogspot.com/2005_08_08_billsbloggins_archive.html

This book has had a huge impact on my life. Since I became a Christian, many years ago, I have always been out of sorts with the majority of Christians around me. This was once very disconcerting to me. Then I read "The Pilgrim Church."

The premise of "The Pilgrim Church" is that history is written by the victors. Those who are the minority seldom have their story told. Through much research E. H. Broadbent has put together a history of the untold story of that part of the church that refused to become part of the world and, instead, chose to live as pilgrims in a strange land.

From the earliest days of Saul (well even the Pharisees of Jesus' day) the minority church has been persectued by the majority and their story has been ignored since all of the church histories have been written by the majority churches. This is a well told account of those who have tried to remain both faithful to God's word and unmixed with the world. This is a story of those whom the established churches have branded as heretics and persecuted and killed.

For me, this book has been a comfort as I slowly come to realize that I have been surrounded by such a huge cloud of witnesses. I am not alone as I try to be true to the revelation of God's word. In a day when it seems like the majority of Christians won't even talk about His word, much less actually read it, I find solace in the courage and resolve of those who have gone before.

It's encouraging to know that there is another side to the story we have been told by the mainstream churches. It is also sad to read of the way the mainstream churches have always treated those who don't follow their dogmas.

Bill

P.S. I pretty much discount everything the "Church Fathers" said. Anything and everything can be found in their writings. :D

[kevinbeck]

Has anyone rad the Gospel of Thomas? Take a look at it with a fulfilled perspective and see what you think. It is pretty short.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas.html

[davo]

All good thoughts folks.

Ever noticed the uneasiness we can have with silence in a conversation? -- like "something" has to happen, and when it appears that it's not going to, then we make it happen -- all to appease OUR uncomfortable-ness. Control issues??

I wonder if how different our world would have looked by now had "Christianity" NOT become a "religion" -- was THAT ever Jesus or Paul's goal?? I think not. "Being" in the presence of God is about witnessing His goodness and enjoying the moment -- and sometimes that means enjoying the silence of all things fulfilled; or as Barry intimated: "silence speaks volumes". [a good oxymoron :)]

[Infinite Grace]

Davo,
here, here. If the followers of Christ, who were first called Christians in Antioch, had followed the example of our common Lord and loved their neighbors, instead of finding new and differing ways to put people in bondage, perhaps the world would be totally different.

I think on Islam, largely a reaction to "idolatry," both in Christianity, which Mohammed was very familiar with, and in the Arabic tribal religions. In Christianity, there was a dispute about icons. The iconoclasts were adamant that this violated the second commandment. The iconolators (my word) went to the extreme in the 7th Ecumenical Council and stated that iconoclasts were unbelievers due to their denial of the Incarnation (which allowed for the use of icons in their theology). Both sides dug in their heels, and there came a split. The Orthodox faith, which was very prominent in the Middle East, held to the Pro-Icon side of things. Mohammed, who was an iconoclast in Arabic culture, created this non-idolatrous religion (although if you know anything of the history, Mo spent a lot of time in Mecca, worshipping a rock there) as a reaction against the Orthodox faith. In addition to the "idolatry" (which I do not agree that it was), he also objected to the teaching of the Trinity. What would have happened had "Christianity" simply preached love and grace through Jesus Christ, without debating the fine points of theology? We'll never know. But we can be fairly certain that things like The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, etc. would most likely not have happened.

It's not too late. We can love our neighbor as ourselves. We can stop the violence, the hate, the prejudice. But only by following The Christ, not those who claim his name in the hopes of controlling others. The choice today I believe is LOVE or Control. You can't have both.

[Paige]

It's not too late. We can love our neighbor as ourselves. We can stop the violence, the hate, the prejudice. But only by following The Christ, not those who claim his name in the hopes of controlling others. The choice today I believe is LOVE or Control. You can't have both.

Profound.

On a related note, it seems to me that those who desire control would do well just to focus on one aspect of it...self-control. That'll keep me busy for a whole lifetime. :)

Paige

[Steve Zodiac]

I wonder if how different our world would have looked by now had "Christianity" NOT become a "religion" -- was THAT ever Jesus or Paul's goal?? I think not.

Well, since the intent of the Messiah and Paul was to announce the PLEROMA (completion) of all that had been foretold, and not the ARCHE (beginning), then there was no thought in the New Covenant writings for a "church" that would continue throughout the ages.

Jesus did not say, "it has begun."

[backtothefuture]

In my opinion, The Silence is where you hear God. That is the message for today. Until you learn to sit in silence you won't be able to see or hear all that is really going on right in front of you.
Silence doesn't demand an answer. Silence is the answer:)
Blessings,
Nancy

[Barry]

Hey Steve,
Welcome aboard brother.

I would say that the end made "everything new". At this time then the first-fruits rested from their works.
Barry