from the same lump [Archive]

Laren

11-10-2007, 10:07 PM

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

Wondering what the "same lump" is? I've seen a discussion on another board where it is explained as we all are under law, self righteous; then God's cosuming fire will burn away (via lake of fire, God is a consuming fire) the chaff and purge us. Basically all go through the lake of fire. all the same lump, sinner and purged through fire into gold.

From a fulfilled view, is this referring to "His people", those under old covenant?

Some were give eyes to see, some responded to the gospel; while others were hardened like pharoah. all to serve a grand purpose, mercy for all.

again, would love to hear all your insightful thots.

thanks

laren

Amie

11-13-2007, 08:50 AM

Laren,

A "pot" was used in their day similarly to us, as a vessel for cooking and storage. "Clay" was used for house building. It was taken out of the local ground, and the clay ground was a foundation for such homes.

After biological mankind/adam was created in Genesis 1, "this same man" (et ha'adam in Hebrew -- this meant that the Adam in Genesis 2 was of the same kind [humankind] as Genesis 1) was formed out of the dust from the ground (Gen 2:7). So the formation from dust does not equal mankind's original creation, and neither does the "breath of life" entering his nostrils. That breath left him the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, yet mankind was biologically still living.

Some metaphorical usages:

Num 23:10 Who can count Jacob's dust, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

1Ki 16:2 Since I have raised you up out of the dust, and made you ruler over My people Israel, and you have walked in the way of Jeroboam, and caused My people Israel to sin, to provoke Me to anger with their sins;

Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech You, that You have formed me as clay; and will You bring me to dust again?

Job 30:19 He has cast me into the mire; and I have become like dust and ashes.

Psa 30:9 What profit is in my blood, in going down to the Pit? Shall the dust praise You? Shall it tell of Your truth?

So an "earthen vessel" (aka "clay pot") can be a "formed" human being, or a "formed" household, or a "formed" container also used for cooking.

Water is added to clay dust of the ground to make it formable. (Cool info on clay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay) Look at this, just before Adam was "formed" of "dust":

Gen 2:6 And mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

I agree with your thoughts on it, and think that the first vessel was formed even before Israel (who was in Adam's likeness). There was "Adam" and then there was the "last Adam". Those who covenantally entered into the body of Christ during the transition, will have been formed as a new vessel.

The church herself, was seen as a "weaker vessel" (1 Peter 3:7) however, and needed to be in submission to her bridegroom in full (1 Peter 3:1). Women were living examples for the behavior of the church. Yep, without us they may not have known what to do, lol!

Amie

Amie

11-13-2007, 11:45 AM

Oh btw,

The "same lump" then will have been Israel after the likeness of Adam, and Israel after the likeness of the "last Adam".

Amie

Laren

11-15-2007, 03:12 PM

Your post got me to thinking Amie, re: dust to clay via water. And from clay to pot via fire.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (via water), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

living soul? the new man via new covenant??

interesting how breath of life is used in this verse

Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

and i thout this verse was interesting, use of water, dust and brimstone (breath of life)all in one verse.

Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

interesting stuff

Amie

11-15-2007, 07:56 PM

Laren,

I agree! It is interesting! I love how the texts pop out when I dig into the symbols. Creation (biological) truly does witness to creation (covenantal).

"Iron" is mentioned a lot in the bible too and is closely related to clay. I'm interested in what might leap out at you considering that - if anything...

Clay minerals are hydrous aluminium phyllosilicates, sometimes with variable amounts of iron, magnesium, alkali metals, alkaline earths and other cations.

The above quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_minerals

Clay minerals (that comprise clay) actually contain iron. If the iron within the clay has oxidized, the clay is red, or rust colored. It also contains, or "is" a type of aluminum.

Aluminium
Small amounts of aluminium (Al) is present in many ores (often as clay) and some limestone. The former can be removed by washing the ore prior to smelting. Until the introduction of brick lined furnaces the amounts are small enough that they do not have an effect on either the iron or slag. However, when brick is used for hearths and the interior of blast furnaces, the amount of aluminium increases dramatically. This is due to the erosion of the furnace lining by the liquid slag,
Aluminium is very hard to reduce. As a result aluminium contamination of the iron is not a problem. However, it does increase the viscosity of the slag (Kato and Minowa 1969:37 and Rosenqvist 1983:311). This will have a number of adverse effects on furnace operation. The thicker slag will slow the descent of the charge, prolonging the process. High aluminium will also make it more difficult to tap off the liquid slag. At the extreme this could lead to a frozen furnace.

There are a number of solutions to a high aluminium slag. the first is avoidance, don't use ore or a lime source with a high aluminium content. Increasing the ratio of lime flux will decrease the viscosity (Rosenqvist 1983:311).

The above from the Wikipedia entry on "iron ore" here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore

Chemical reduction, or smelting, is a form of extractive metallurgy. main use of smelting is to produce a metal from its ore. This includes iron extraction (for the production of steel) from iron ore, copper extraction and other base metals from their ores.

The above from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smelting

An "iron furnace", as presented in the bible, was an iron smelting tool.

Amie

Laren

11-15-2007, 08:18 PM

Eric B

11-22-2007, 01:40 PM

"Same Lump" obviously means humanity. Calvinists always use this verse to teach individual election and reprobation, but in its context; it's talking about Israel vs. the New Covenant "nation", which was embodied in "the gentiles" (Though of course, Jews would become apart of it as well). God raised up Israel, not to save them through physical inheritance (which is what the Jews were trusting in, and hence the theme of much of the NT), but precisely to show through them that the Law and physical inheritance did not save. Hence, the "hardening", and "wrath". Meanwhile, it was the new "nation" that were the spiritual heirs, and the vessels of mercy. Anyone could cross from the former to the latter.
I had known about this, and argued it against Calvinists long before hearing about the fulfilled view, but the fulfilled view is very consistent with it! People automatically take "wrath" as "eternal Hell", but it was really the "wrath" of the destruction of the OC system! Even without a fulfilled view, it is obvious from the context that "wrath" is not specifying damnation of individuals.

Paige

11-22-2007, 08:37 PM

Makes sense to me. Glad you decided to hang around over here for a bit, Eric :)

Paige

Jotham

11-23-2007, 09:21 AM

(P.S. Eric excellent post, very insightful !)

this might be a bit off topic? here goes:

see 2 Peter 3:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

My question pertains to v5 > 7. A buddy of mine who is newly arrived in the fulfilled camp said he had a futurist friend ask him about the above passage, specificaly asking him how/why the fulfilled view of "reserved for fire" is a figurative/spiritualized event, yet the "deluge" event of the flood (local or otherwise) is claimed to be a physical event.

My response was a wee bit weak i suppose but i stated basically there was plenty of evidence in science/anthropology to suggest a localized Mesopotamian Valley flood, and that one could also see a figurative/spiritual event in the flood of that day as the planet still remained after the flood, yet their "world" would have certainly seemed as though it ended.

I'd like to get some input for myself and to pass on to my coffee house buddy.

: ) Thom

Barry

11-23-2007, 11:43 AM

(P.S. Eric excellent post, very insightful !)

this might be a bit off topic? here goes:

see 2 Peter 3:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

My question pertains to v5 > 7. A buddy of mine who is newly arrived in the fulfilled camp said he had a futurist friend ask him about the above passage, specificaly asking him how/why the fulfilled view of "reserved for fire" is a figurative/spiritualized event, yet the "deluge" event of the flood (local or otherwise) is claimed to be a physical event.
I'd like to get some input for myself and to pass on to my coffee house buddy.

: ) Thom

Your comment appear to me to be contextually sound in regards to the destruction of the world in question.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The "world of the ungodly" is not the physical world.
Also, the destruction of the temple is and that of Jerusalem is physical.
Not one stone shall be left upon another is a physical matter.
It is not merely physical however. It pertains to a covenantal world.

Also, what "world" was the gospel preached too?
Just a thought,
Barry

Amie

11-23-2007, 12:05 PM

Thom,

Jerusalem wasn't burned, becoming like Gehenna, with symbolic/figurative fire (those were physical things - good point Barry). The fire burning Jerusalem had meaning for all which could be gathered by understanding the figurative language however.

If God was able to purify the entire world through the fire wrought upon Jerusalem, then the entire old world was burned away by that fire.

Noah's flood could be evidenced more strongly as localized if it impacted the entire world in a similar manner. I hear that JL (a T-G member) and a friend of his are working on that.

The water may have symbolically washed away the clay image of Adam and marked the beginnings of the formation of a new image. Israel's work in Egypt was in clay brick building. I'm not sure that's a coincidence. Nor do I think that these bricks needing drying in the sun, their ability to build a kiln, or their ability to function as a kiln to speed the brick building process is.

It brings to mind the image in Daniel and how each "kingdom" has a smelted metal to represent it. As if Israel were a kiln that each Kingdom had owned, as "head" over Israel.

..some thoughts.

Amie

Jotham

11-23-2007, 11:45 PM

Barry and Amie, very thought provoking posts. I really had not thought of the flood having the possibility of a spiritual meaning (well not in the way that you've presented here anyway). I'm heading off to dreamland as it's late and i've got an early work day Saturday so i'll have to revisit these posts and do some more pondering and study. Thanks for the nice whack on the side of the old cranium.

: ) Thom