Just why did Jesus have to die?

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I have been thinking about this question a lot lately. Just, why did Jesus have to die?
Could fulfillment and the old covenant system have passed away without his death?
Just wondering,:eek:
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

If you look at how theologians address this question, you realize that the answer to this is extremely varied. I have some personal opinions that I can share, but I realize others may disagree with me.

IMO, Jesus' death was necessary on many levels.

1. If God set up a system where sacrifice represented temporary appeasement, then revealed that the blood of bulls could never satisfy it, perhaps His own blood would put to rest forever that God is eternally satisfied.

2. When one covenant is revealed to be a ministration of death, what better picture to eternally represent the outcome of law? The picture of Christ on the cross shows the inevitable outcome of law over grace.

IMO, fulfillment of the OC could not have happened without Jesus' death because that plan was in the mind of God. Revelation calls Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I know this comes off as awfully simplistic, but I guess that is just how my mind is working at the moment.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Hi Paige,
I was kind of thinking along your lines:biggrinbounce: I was wondering more about the Blood in regards to the sacrifice. I know that sounds morbid or something. But we have sung for years so many old hymns about the Blood of the Lamb. What can wash away your sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus..etc.
So I can see where the Shed blood of Christ replaced the Shed blood of the animal sacrifice, but sometimes think that was so extreme!! Only I would think about this HA!
After the temple was destroyed, were there never again any kind of animal sacrifice given then? I believe there was about a 40 year period between the crucification and the ending of the law, is that correct?
Thanks for the input.
Blessings
Nancy

[Paige]

After the temple was destroyed, were there never again any kind of animal sacrifice given then? I believe there was about a 40 year period between the crucification and the ending of the law, is that correct?

Yes, that is my understanding. No sacrifices ever occurred at synagogues; and yes, it was about 40 years between the cross and the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Paige,
It only just dawned on me that these sacrifices were done at the synagogues. Seems so odd. Like us going to church with a dove or two pigeons or something. Now, in the beginning of the law, this was the correct way of doing things? Going all the way back into the old testament, but I am not sure as far back as Adam and Eve?
So the sacrifice brought them atonement for their sin which was described by the law or would that also mean the 10 commandments?
Sorry for all the questions. Just something I started thinking about randomly :)
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

Did you meant to write "not" done at the synagogues?


So the sacrifice brought them atonement for their sin which was described by the law or would that also mean the 10 commandments?

We see the beginning of sacrifice when God clothes Adam and Eve after the opening of their eyes. We see it then, again, with Cain and Abel. Possibly Adam taught his children this concept? Before Moses, we see the practice of sacrifice and offerings pretty well established. However, I think God uses Moses to teach, and powerfully illustrate the division and separation brought in by the tree of the KoGE. God commands sacrifice to be done only at certain (special) times, with certain (special) offerings, and in a specified place (the temple, not a synagogue which came into the picture much later in Israel's history).

I think in their minds, they received a certain amount of satisfaction in thinking that the sacrifices they were making made a difference in how God felt about them. However, Hebrews also reveals that the sacrifice served as a yearly reminder of sin for them. Under this system, I don't think they could ever feel what it feels like to be loved unconditionally, regardless of performance. I also think that living under this system, they experienced an eventual hardening to their real state, which is why they became so comfortable with it. So much so, that they rejected Jesus for it because to receive Him meant leaving the system they knew and with which they identified so well.

Does that answer what you were asking?

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Yes Paige
You explained it very well to me:biggrinbounce: Boy can I get confused or what HA!
I was thinking the sacrifice was at the synagogues and not the temples. I forgot that it was sometimes a yearly thing and for special times.
Now when Jesus went into the synagogue and turned the tables over, that wasn't because of animal sacrifice was it?
Is a synagogue the modern version of a temple?
I also feel it would be terrible not to feel unconditional love. I have a hard time with it myself, but am learning a little more each day about not being so hard on myself. I have learned Paige that I can give God, but its hard for me to receive God. (new topic!)
I have just started reading my Bible after a long long break. It has sat next to me where I have sat in pain and suffering for 3 years. I think its time to go back in. I have started with the Psalms. Create in me a clean heart is my prayer. Like David. I wonder what it meant to have a clean heart before God in David's day.
I guess that is what got me wondering just why Jesus had to die and just what it meant to sacrifice.
Thanks Paige for taking the time to explain to me.
Blessings
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

Matt. 21:12 tells us that Jesus overturned the tables at the temple (Mark 11:15-18 gives the same account).

I did a quick search and came up with a link that gives the history of the synagogue. Here it is:

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/synagogue/history.html


I have learned Paige that I can give God, but its hard for me to receive God. (new topic!)

That would make an interesting thread for sharing :)

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Paige,
I really enjoyed the article. I love history so much and this was so interesting. I was wondering about the explanation where some of the Jewish people went into captivity but because of the prophecy that said they would return to their own country if that is Israel (the county) today? I get so confused when we talk here about Israel as a nation or Israel as the church or people etc.
So how do the Jewish people today, as they don't believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus make atonement for their sin?
Thanks so much
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

The Jewish people of today have really had to, sort of, invent for themselves a new system of religion. They do not have a temple (obviously), and therefore do not offer blood sacrifices. I'm not sure, exactly, how they get around that (atonement). Does anyone else here know?

Paige

[Amie]

I hope that y'all don't mind my adding some thoughts. I've been reading along and hope that y'all keep posting!

I thought of:


2Co 10:3 For walking about in flesh, we do not war according to flesh;
2Co 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful to God to the demolishion of strongholds,
2Co 10:5 the demolishing of arguments and every high thing lifting up itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ,
2Co 10:6 and having readiness to avenge all disobedience, whenever your obedience is fulfilled.

Interesting that in the above "captivity" is of the mind in obeying Jesus. Of course, verse 6 says that obedience would be complete/fulfilled one day.

During that time though, their obedience was an important part of ushing in the new covenant/life.


Eph 4:7 But to each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Because of this, He says, "Having gone up on high, He led captivity captive," and gave "gifts to men." Psa. 68:18

"Because of" grace, captivity (bondage to sin under the law) was held captive. I think that this again is speaking to their becoming captive to the obedience of Jesus. Grace as the gift of Jesus (also - becoming aware of the redemption of all) was the reason that they found themselves captivated.


Rev 13:10 If anyone gathers captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone will kill by a sword, by a sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So, the faith and patience of the saints seems to be focused on the coming reality of the captivation (to the obedience of Jesus) of those in captivity (in bondage to sin under the law).

Captivity (bondage to sin under the law) was ultimately captivated by love. Love without condition makes law a non-issue.

The law biblically, was one given by God and previously interpreted by human beings (so the interpretation was flawed). The righteous interpretation of it revealed that love is above any sin.

In obeying Jesus ("love one another", "love your enemy", "love your neighbor", "love God") the first fruits participating in revealing that.

I think that Paige and Nancy already touched on this, but it wasn't God demanding blood to begin with, but people who initially believed that there was a need for it. The system which was put in place under Moses will have enabled them to get the most relief from sacrifice as possible (and as Paige pointed out, it truly had little relief in that sin was to be remembered).

Cain and Abel make the first recorded offering and this was just after the story of their parents coming to believe that they weren't worthy of love either of themselves (evidenced by shame) or of God (evidenced by fear). It was that view which was passed to Cain and Abel which lead them to believe in a need for an offering in approaching God.

The sacrifice of Jesus "atones" (makes right) this wrong. He came here knowing that he would be killed to make God's unconditional love known. He therefore gave his life, that we may have life.


I was wondering about the explanation where some of the Jewish people went into captivity but because of the prophecy that said they would return to their own country if that is Israel (the county) today?

Israel was originally in covenant/contract with God via Moses to keep the law. If they kept the law, they would act as Kings and Priests. That meant that they would function effectively in authority as judges and mediators. That contract was made here:


Exo 19:5 And now if listening you will listen to My voice, and will keep My covenant, you shall become a special treasure to Me above all the nations, for all the earth is Mine.
Exo 19:6 And you shall become a kingdom of priests for Me, a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.

They were unable to keep their end of the contract. Like I said, they were unable to even interpret the law of God accurately. This left them in need of a restoration to God's purpose as a nation.. a need for resurrection. Without that, humanity even was absent these Kings and Priests.

A prophecy concerning their resurrection was made here:


Eze 37:1 The hand of Jehovah was on me. And He brought me by the Spirit of Jehovah and made me rest in the midst of a valley, and it was full of bones.
Eze 37:2 And He made me pass among them all around. And, behold, very many were on the face of the valley. And, behold! They were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And He said to me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I said, O Lord Jehovah, You know.
Eze 37:4 And He said to me, Prophesy to these bones and say to them, O dry bones, hear the Word of Jehovah:
Eze 37:5 So says the Lord Jehovah to these bones, Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live,
Eze 37:6 and I will put on you sinews and will bring flesh on you and spread skin over you and put breath in you, and you shall live. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.

WHO the "bones" were:


Eze 37:11 Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is perished; we are cut off to ourselves.

The prophesy continues in describing their resurrection. This was the resurrection which Jesus said that he actually was. He kept Israel's contract on their behalf so that through him, they were risen and restored as a nation.

Some people look to the future for that restoration, because like many of Israel in the day of Jesus, they are expecting the earth to be literally conquered by Jesus from Jerusalem. The Pharisees already asked Jesus about when that would be, and he already answered:


Luk 17:20 And being questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God comes, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luk 17:21 nor will they say, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! For behold the kingdom of God is in your midst.

So, I don't agree with those looking forward to a future restoration of Israel. I think that not only was it restored, but it fulfilled its' role through Jesus and so its' purpose is fulfilled.


I get so confused when we talk here about Israel as a nation or Israel as the church or people etc.
I (and many of us here) am speaking about Israel and the church as it existed in the bible. This is a record of history. The "they" and "them", "we" and "us" no longer exist. I like how someone describes it as our reading someone else's mail. Many of the new testament books are in truth letters.

To read the "they" and "them" or "we" and "us" as written to us today, is to take the letters out of context. That would be like you writing a letter to me ten years ago, and Paige assuming that everywhere you wrote "you" is referring to her in the present. Let's say the letter to me is about baking a cake that she can enjoy later at a party. If she took the letter to be written to her, she would continually try and bake the cake for herself rather than getting that there is a cake there already for her to enjoy. That is very much what many do with the bible today.

Scholarship is concerning itself today with keeping things in context and then examining what that means for people today. That is spreading amongst we lay scholars and I hope that it continues.


So how do the Jewish people today, as they don't believe in the blood sacrifice of Jesus make atonement for their sin?

After the fall of the temple, Jewish leadership gathered in effort to solve the problem of atonement without the temple. They created newer ways of keeping feasts and laws. Modern Judaism is therefore very different than the Judaism found in the bible. However, they still look to a time when the temple will be rebuilt and they are able to atone according to the book once again. Until then, they gather at the standing fortress wall which had protected the temple and cry out in mourning. It is called "the wailing wall". Their own disbelief is cause for their suffering.

Many of them though, are realizing through their own hearts that God has not abandoned them.

Sorry that this is sooo long!

Amie

[Jotham]

Hi Nancy, you stated:

...I get so confused when we talk here about Israel as a nation or Israel as the church or people etc.
So how do the Jewish people today...
There are several interesting articles out there explaining just what a "Jewish" individual is these days. One thing they are not (or at least can not prove) is any blood line back to moses/aron. When the temple was destroyed in 70ad, so went all the family records and any hope of tying one's DNA/Family-Tree back to prove that individual is part of any "Jewish Race". That the Jews do not constitute a "race" is common knowledge and has found its way into many popular encyclopedias:

Encyclopedia Britanica;
"The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race".

Collier's Encyclopedia;
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race'".

The World Book Encyclopedia;
"For example, there is no such thing as a Jewish race".

If someone calls/labels themselves as a "Jew" today, they are most likely referring to the religion that they are following. I suppose there are some holdouts with fanciful ideas that they really believe they are direct descendants from the "Priesthood", but they could never prove this. Nor is the current political state anything but that, a chunk of land crated by the UN to appease the people and maybe the UN's conscience. But that's another story.

--WARNING--Thom's Tangent: Hey did anyone hear the bit on Benny Hin (i saw this while flipping through the channels the other week) state what a "Generation" is? I remember him siding many years ago, back in 1987 or so, with Hal Lindsey that a "Generation is 40 years". Now he is stating that a "Generation is 100 years". What a joke !!!! 1988 comes and goes (H.L.'s predicted "Return") and they've got to come up with something different for date setting(Last i heard, H.L. is teaching a "70 year Generation" 2018 anyone??). Now HL and BH would even have to be accountable down here for their erroneous teachings. I DO BELIEVE, that both of them, will be held accountable and God will have some words to say to them when the cross over. You can't lead hundreds of thousands of ppl astray and live in an ivory mansion paid for by the proceeds of false teachings and go unscathed forever.
--END OF TT--

Cheers,
Thom

[backtothefuture]

Amie and Thom,
Thanks so much for your input. My goodness when I read what I am learning here, I just sit in Awe some days. I found this all so interesting.

Tonight at dinner my husband and I were talking about The first family being dysfunctional. By that I mean Adam and Eve. They had a son that killed his brother and knew shame and fear early on. We just wondered why those kinds of emotions were introduced so early on. So really even in the garden it was not a perfect place where some think. Also, out side the garden.

I feel sad for the Jewish people today Amie, standing outside a wailing wall thinking that God has abandoned them. I have felt that myself just sitting up here in my room. I am so glad I am learning more everyday, that he hasn't abandoned me. That he indeed came, and gave the sacrifice.

Thom, I actually know people who have said they have traced their family tree back to King David!! I just don't have a clue how they have figured that out since I know the records have been destroyed and many of the Jewish people were assimilated into other ethnic groups.
As for BH. I think they are investigating him and 5 other evangelicals and checking their money situation and why they have so much!

Thanks all for all the input. Helps me to so much more understand what I have come out of and what I am walking forward into.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

Great point about the garden Nancy. Maybe we've returned to it healed? I haven't made up my mind about that yet and am still thinking it over.

Thom,

I hadn't heard that about Benny Hinn. Do you think that he is sincere? Do you think that makes a difference?

(..love your tangents!)

Amie

[Jotham]

Hi Nancy, Amie and family : )

Amie, yes i believe that B.H. is sincere and believes what he says. . . but then so were we back in our futurist days ! I was sincerely counting the days down to 1988! And again to 1994 when i was following Harold Camping's doomNgloom prediction. As you are all aware there is so much life in the fulfilled view! As my siggy file reads "future's so bright i gotta wear shades", and it aint' to shield my eyes from the light of the mushroom cloud as the original authors of the song meant!

--Danger Will Robinson-- a TT ahead:
Nancy, my take, and i know this is still a sensitive matter for many, so take it with a shaker of salt; I believe human kind, thinking, reflecting, creative, productive in every sense of the words, were around hundreds of generations before the biblical "Adam and Eve" that showed up in the middle eastern plot of land they were to cultivate and prosper in. There have been other threads discussing the possibilities in this area so i won't go into detail. Rather i'll share my sincere belief that science and the bible can be at peace along side each other and that the bible was written to a peculiar people-group set aside for God's glory among the humanity of that day. . . which science and anthropology have shown was in full bloom and prospering in many different areas of the physical planet outside the "world" of the Mesopotamian Valley. For instance, and these are just two examples; in the past 5 years archaeologists have reached down to what they believe is the absolute foundation layer of the city of Jericho, which they are dating through pottery, tools, and weapons to about 7,000b.c. In California, a recent archaeological dig has unearthed what is believed to be the oldest native American community in the western states, dating back about 12,000 years.

To me, none of this rocks my FaithBoat. It just proves even more how much God wanted to reach down to humanity and show us that He loved us and wanted us to realize we could hang out with the creator of the universe while we walked our temporary physical walk as spiritual beings. To me also, it is evident that humanity has always had a God shaped space inside him/herself that they were trying to fill. They tried all the various "gods" of nature, and some groups, came really close to finding the God of creation (and maybe in God's eyes they did and worshiped Him in purity through their lives anyway!). Maybe Him coming down and visiting that particular family/group in the valley was His way of finally running a bit shy on patience and showing a whole lotta mercy and wanting to show us how to have the real deal? but then we know the rest of the story of how they blew it and worshiped the creation (themselves) above the creator once again. It is so much easier for us in our material suits to worship what we can feel and touch, from early grave findings, approx 50 thousand years ago (which included tools and such, a religious act??) to the 21st century being. Nothing much has changed in our material walk.
. . . I wonder what life would have been had God chosen to birth us as non-physical beings? would it have been easier for us to worship a God that we could actually see? Maybe not, many of the angelic beings that had access to God worshiped the creation also and fell.
--end of Thom's Tangent--

: 0 T

[Eric B]

Nancy,

The Jewish people of today have really had to, sort of, invent for themselves a new system of religion. They do not have a temple (obviously), and therefore do not offer blood sacrifices. I'm not sure, exactly, how they get around that (atonement). Does anyone else here know?
Yes; I have seen in rabbinic rebuttals to Christianity that all God wants is "repentance" now and not blood sacrifice. One site I saw makes it look like sacrifice was never even valid, associating it with "pagans":eek: . On another site, they tried to show in the OT somewhere, where God was rescinding sacrifice; but I forget the example they used. I'm probably thinking of Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; mine ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required and 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
They interpret this as excusing them from sacrifice. But wouldn't it seem funny for God to end that in the middle of nowhere, through passing mentions like that, and centuries before the last temple was finally destroyed? (And what about those trying to rebuild the Temple? But those are probably Zionists, and many of the ultraorthodox reject them anyway). No; God officially ended it with Jesus! But they can't admit that, of course.

[Amie]

Eric,

Since sacrifice began with Cain and Abel, would you agree that it was humanity which felt the need for it to begin with? God may have obliged, or even contributed to their believing in a need for it - but he was not the first to act upon it in the story?

Amie