Is God Just?

[Infinite Grace]

I read a sign in front of a Church of God yesterday (the church is across the street from my trailer park). It read:

A God who is All Mercy is UNJUST.

Pissed me off royally.

Do they realize how lucky they are that God is ALL MERCY? Their asses would be frying soon if he weren't.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Truthseeker]

Dear brother,

I have the same reaction to such a statement!

What saves THEM from God's anger and wrath (that they're so sure He has) I wonder? Its like Jesus, when he gave it right back to the Pharisees and Saduccees: "What will save YOU from the Judgment of Gehenna?" he asked. What made them so special? If they were put under the same microscope they put everyone else under, guess what?

But the GOOD NEWS is more and more people are seeing the Universal Love of our Father in Heaven--and how his Christ brought it all about. This is why such signs are going up in front of churches these days. It scares them, because, just what good are the churches when all men are under the Grace of God? HOW would they keep that tithe and offering money coming in? If they can't use FEAR to keep people in submission, what would they use? LOVE? Perish the thought! Its unthinkable for them that men would actually serve the Father out of LOVE. --rhonda

[davo]

Oh Ed I can't believe that about you :biggrinbounce: . At least they're honest -- honestly mistaken :biglaugha:

Besides, that's not as bad as those signs that read "Jesus is the Saviour of the World" and you darn well that the folk inside the church or though they'll nod in acknowledgment, actually don't believe it. It's always Jesus and...

[Truthseeker]

Dear Davo, Religion is a snare and a racket.

"But the Jerusalem above is Free, and She is our mother."

But the churches would have people think that they can't possibly get to God without them. As if their leaders are in a "superior" position--have some kind of line to God that most people can't ever attain. They just put on the frock of that woman, Babylon the Great, and become "mini me's" of Jerusalem herself--complete with hierarchy and priests, tithes and Lording it over others.

At some point, a sincere truthseeker realizes that going to the Lord directly is true Freedom. "Come to me, " he said, " all you who are laden down and I will refresh your souls." --rhonda

[Infinite Grace]

Here's a quick thought on Mercy.

Calvinists make a claim that God CHOOSES us based on nothing but his mercy. Their last POINT is that "saints" persevere. IOW, those chosen by God cannot be lost.

Why then do Calvinists (which I used to be numbered with them) teach that Judas was "lost?" Don't the scriptures tell us that Jesus CHOSE the 12, and he was numbered with the 12? Also, don't Calvinists consistently teach that Jesus is God? I mean, we all know the logic here.

am I missing something?

[Paige]

Ed,

I think how a calvinist would answer that is by saying that Christ chose His betrayer. IOW, Judas had no choice in the matter, it was all pre-programmed and he was the "damned" puppet that played his part.

That is what I find the most distateful of all about the calvinist doctrine. The calvinists I've talked to will always deny that this is true, but humanity becomes merely robotic. There is no "choice" or "freedom". One of Philip Yancy's books I read described it as a big chess game where God plays both sides of the board.

Paige

[Amie]

Paige,


There is no "choice" or "freedom".

We don't believe that there is choice concerning salvation, or the freedom to screw it up either. How are they different other than the exclusive view of it?

Amie

[Bill]

Hey Ed,

I feel the same way about God's mercy. The first time I got kicked out of a church it was because someone said that it would be unfair if God didn't reward those who serve Him faithfully. I responded, with great sadness, by saying that the essense of Christianity is that God is unfair. It was unfair for Jesus to suffer in our place." Mercy is the opposite of fairness. It's funny how things that I think make really good sense are just plain heresy to others.

It's like they think that God rewards them with salvation for their being good enough, or smart enough, or humble enough to believe in Jesus.

Acts 16:14

A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Bill

[ozark]

Bill,

How true. The one who understands the kingdom answers “Yes” when asked if he would serve God even if the one who does nothing gets the same reward. He answers yes, because he wants his brother to have all he has and more, and because love is His highest goal not what he can get for himself. Is this not the heart of Christ? If He thought like some do, there never would have been a cross. The Lord freely gives us His own righteousness without respects to our merit. Why? He wants us to be where He is and have what He has. He does so because He is love.

[Paige]

Quote:
There is no "choice" or "freedom".

We don't believe that there is choice concerning salvation, or the freedom to screw it up either. How are they different other than the exclusive view of it?


Amie,

Good point. How I would clarify that is that they would see Judas "programmed" to do what he did. It is the supralapsarian view that "God made him do it." This viewpoint has been endlessly debated, but I am not satisfied with the notion that we have been programmed to act and do what we do. Somehow, I think that God is able to interact with His creation w/o having to make it robotic. Does that help clarify what I meant?

Paige

[Amie]

Absolutely Paige, ty :)

[Truthseeker]

Hi All,

I love what was said about how our Lord, out of Love, wanted to share what he has with all others--so very true. In fact, we cannot possibly love as he loves (loving our neighbors as much as ourselves and even our enemies) if we don't share that same desire.

About Judas: how about the Father's foreknowledge? Since He knew the End from the Beginning? Couldn't He see, just from thinking ahead of time, what every single human would be like at any given period of time? So wouldn't He have seen that Judas, because of his DNA, his upbringing, environment, etc, would be the one who would betray Jesus? And that this would work out just so?

And since God also knew that all of this would work out for the Greater Good of all--that this was the very best thing--even for Judas?

What causes one man to have a good heart and another man a wicked heart? What would one child, born into one certain family with inherited tendencies exposed to one particular environment and time who grows up to be whatever he is--do if he were to be born in another family with other inherited tendencies exposed to another particular environment and time? What makes a man a man, and a heart a heart geared to evil or good?--rhonda

[Infinite Grace]

One of the things about Judas that many forget is that he most likely betrayed Jesus in the hopes that he would stand up and declare himself King. He was forcing Jesus hand. After that didn't happen, Judas had a change of heart - we know the rest of the story.

Jesus said something in the whole Passover meal about Judas and satan. Most futurists see this as an allusion to Judas being "possessed" by a demon, the prince of demons. However, truth be told, the word simply means "enemy." Remember Jesus calling Peter "satan?" Peter was an enemy of the gospel when he declared that he would never allow them to crucify Jesus. In the same way, Judas thought he was using God's enemy, the Pharisees, the true satans, to call Jesus out. Force his hand, as I mentioned earlier. What most didn't realize was that they were all playing into the Father's hand. Jesus was going to be killed, and THEY were going to do it.

Judas was simply a man whom God used in his eternal purposes. Judas had one job, and that was to betray the Christ so that Jesus could die for the sin of the kosmos. God accomplished it all - through Jesus, using "satans" such as Judas, the Pharisees, and the Roman guard. It was done. It remains done. The cross, the parousia...DONE. Death is dead, redemption is complete.

Praise to our God, who does all things for his glory.

[Bill]

Good stuff Ed!

God used Judas to manifest His great love for us all and now today Satan uses Judas to keep people from seeing the extent of His love. :(

[davo]

Good stuff Ed!

God used Judas to manifest His great love for us all and now today Satan uses Judas to keep people from seeing the extent of His love. :(

Yes Bill, i.e., understanding "satan' as Ed describes it. Yes, good stuff Ed.

[Infinite Grace]

Yes Davo,
as Nancy and I were discussing on another thread, the institutional church today is by-and-large "satan" in being an enemy of God's grace.

However, I have to say that a lot of that is changing. I am in a ministry in which people from the United Church of Christ, the Reformed Church of America, Quakers, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church all are coming together to minister to people with addictions. We have laid aside our denominational and doctrinal distinctions to merely do the work of God of sharing Christ's love with the downtrodden and the prisoners.

Most of what God is doing in the earth today is being done through what might be properly termed "parachurch ministries." Churches, as an institution, are largely out of the loop and clueless of what God is doing, or even what God requires:

to do justly
to love mercy
to walk humbly with God.

[Bill]

Yep. Satan is the accuser. Whoever or whatever accuses us of not being freed from the law is satan. When the Law was abolished, Satan was defeated and made powerless. No one has the right or power to bring condemnation against us anymore! :clap2: :biggrinbounce: :)

[christyG]

Great thread!

I read a book written by Hank Hanagraff (sp) meant to be a rebuttal to the End Times series I believe.---The first of a series about the destruction of the temple. In that book he writes a converstaion between John and one of the characters about Judas, and he has John speak so lovingly of him that it brought tears to my eyes when I read it. Hanagraff has John give the explaination I saw earlier that Judas was a zealot and was hoping to bring in the kingdom by force.

As some of you know, I do still attend church, although now that my children are getting older, it is getting harder---I'm afraid that they will be indoctrinated, although my church is fairly open. Last Sunday my pastor preached a sermon about winning. He was talking about motivations, external, internal and eternal. He said that the eternal motivation was winning. :confused: I couldn't accept that and left a note on his desk with my questions about that statement. I said that if winning were our eternal motivation then I would have to see God as a mad scientist watching us, the lab rats, find (or not find) our way through the maze...to the "prize". I asked why he didn't think that love was (or should be) our eternal motivation. This is a very "churchian" idea and one I believe has kept the church from loving as it should, it almost gives them a reason not to love others---at least not the "losers".:(

kinda sad isn't it. Just thought this seemed to fit in with what you all were saying.

[Infinite Grace]

Adding to my earlier post - I forgot about the churches that are supporting us financially as well as with their facilities - Episcopal, Wesleyan, Disciples of Christ, and Catholic. You have to admit, accusations aside, God is doing something to bring his people together. Let's not be too quick to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In fact, I just discussed tonight with my pastor about doing my Counseling Internship with the church, which will include my time working with the ministry that I have been a part of. I am excited, being able to provide care to those members who so often get lost in the shuffle of the programs. Pray that I will exhibit God's grace to these dear folks at the end of their lives - that they may enter into that place with joy and assurance in their hearts.