For your own good..

[Amie]

There are ways to try and control others. There is humiliation, shame, fear, physically overpowering them, and many more.

Why do we do it? Well, maybe I'm nieve but I feel that usually our intentions are good. Even the folks who are the most up-in-arms about me right now, are interested in saving my soul or the souls of those around me.

It might be self-serving in that they get to be the accomplished hero, but I am not sure that the point of it all is to win that cape.

If we were out on a boat with someone that we just knew couldn't swim, and they jumped into the lake, how easy would it be to let go when they asked us to?

What if they were pulling others out with them and we know a hurricane is coming on top of everything else?

I remember feeling that desperate when my husband wouldn't get fully immersed baptized - and when he wouldn't be the example for our children.

Typically we CAN learn to make choices for the greater good of others, without the control tactics listed before.

As a society, we've largely learned ie, that "sucking it up" isn't really creating stoic adults. It is creating adults that experience ongoing pain and suffering because of repression. We've learned other ways to accomplish stoic adults, minus the repression.

It is our job as parents to work for the best for our children. We screw up - I have YET to meet a perfect parent. Even when it is our job and when typically it matters the most to us, we mess up.

Is it our job as stewards to work for the best for others? Well, if I were about to make a horrible financial investment, I may be grateful to a friend for warning me. I may on the other hand, still feel that it is the best choice for me. It was my responsibility all along, my friend was just sharing their opinion or knowledge.

Ultimately, we are all free to make choices for ourselves. Concern for our welfare is the sign of someone who really cares, constant disrespect for our wish to choose for ourselves and efforts at control, is the sign of a desperate person.

My husband stayed with me through my desperation. He reacted to me with calm, confidence, and assurance. I was afraid and he was patient.

How do we respond then when someone is holding onto us when we wish to be let go? I think my husband was a great example. He knew that it was never me that was holding him - so he never resisted.

How do we handle those moments when we want to hold onto others that wish to be let go? Maybe they don't agree with Comprehensive Grace, maybe they are convicted in their doctrine.

My first thought is "Grace". They are already free - can we love them where they are?

Loving someone where they are at, and responding with patience and stability - I can say that it at least worked for my own good.


Amie

[Lauri]

Amie,
You wrote
How do we handle those moments when we want to hold onto others that wish to be let go? Maybe they don't agree with Comprehensive Grace, maybe they are convicted in their doctrine.

My first thought is "Grace". They are already free - can we love them where they are?

This is something I am constantly working on. Andy and I fellowship with a small group from an evangelical church once a week at a bible study and fellowship, not to try and persuade them to our way of thinking but just for the fellowship. They are a great group of people who love God and we really enjoy fellowshipping with them. We laugh a lot and once a month have a pot luck and game night. They definatley don't have a Comprehensive Grace doctrine and sometimes that really comes out. Just this week we read in Leviticus about all the things the High priest had to do in order to make a sacrifice. One guy then said it just shows how specific God has things in mind for how he wants things done and how he wants us to act so how do people think that he just loves everybody no matter what. Then they started reading in Matthew about God seperating the sheep from the goats. It was a real test to see if I could love them where they are. It was not the place or setting to start a debate about comprehensive grace nor would it have been well recieved. Does that mean I should not associate myself with them. That would be like the Christian who refuses to fellowsip with their homosexual relative because they don't want them to think they condone their sin. I am sure I will be tested again and again with my daughter on loving her where she is even if she never agrees with comprehensive grace. Of coarse I would love for her to find the same freedom in Christ that I have found but I also know she is already free. She truly loves God and that is enough for me.

Lauri

[Infinite Grace]

Yes, this is the fine line we walk. Sometimes in our "need" to convince others, we become as controlling as they are trying to convince us of our heresy. The beauty is that, in our view, we are able to accept them where they are. They are not able to reciprocate.

I fellowship with folks in the ministry with which I am associated, and they are continually talking about "satan" doing this and satan doing that. I usually just bite my tongue. It is sad nonetheless.

[Amie]

This reminds me of the whole inspire vs control type of parenting.

The controller tells their children ie, to eat healthy. That parent coerces them into doing their will. The children most often hope and pray for the day they can leave the house and eat what they want.

The inspirer eats healthy, and their children follow suite.


The beauty is that, in our view, we are able to accept them where they are. They are not able to reciprocate.

Do you think that Paul's being "all things to all people" enabled diverse folks to reciprocate?

Amie

[Paige]

Do you think that Paul's being "all things to all people" enabled diverse folks to reciprocate?

I definitely think it helped them feel accepted. If one doesn't feel accepted by people who claim to love and follow God, do you think it gets in the way with one's being able to feel accepted by God?

[Amie]

I definitely think it helped them feel accepted. If one doesn't feel accepted by people who claim to love and follow God, do you think it gets in the way with one's being able to feel accepted by God?

That was my thought as well. Perhaps our giving acceptance, will inspire others to accept themselves and others.

Amie

[Lauri]

Paige and Amie,

I agree, Paige you wrote:
If one doesn't feel accepted by people who claim to love and follow God, do you think it gets in the way with one's being able to feel accepted by God?

Have you heard the saying in the church accept or love the sinner, hate the sin? Especially when referring to homosexuals. Do you think that is possible? Especially for the homosexual who's whole idenity is tied up in being gay. If the church says homosexuality is a sin to be hated how can the gay person still feel loved? After all if God no longer accuses or judges their sin what right do we have to?

Lauri

[Paige]

Lauri,

This is a hard topic for me. It's not just the tabooness of homosexuality. Sin is sin, so take for example a couple in a "church". Say that one of them feels as if there is nothing "wrong" with going outside the marriage for sexual fulfillment. God still loves them. Does God love the harm they are doing to themself and the other person? Or someone in the congregation who is making their living by cheating others, etc... I have to honestly say I struggle with how to operate the way God wants me to under these kinds of conditions. I don't want to make others feel unloved by God, yet I'm not sure I'm loving by making people feel cozy in patterns of behavior that are harmful.

I think that when it came down to it, I would respond differently to one who is honestly admitting they have a personal battle and asking for some help in facing it and overcoming it; as opposed to one who just seems to want permission to continue on in a self-destructive cycle.

I know this discussion can open a whole can of worms as to whether some acts are really self-destructive. Where I stand now, I view homsexuality in that category. Not that it is worse than other forms of self-destruction, but that it is another form of it.

So, I guess I'm saying that I agree for now with the saying "love the sinner, hate the sin." We had an uncle who destroyed himself with drugs and alcohol (he died a few years ago). We loved him, but hated what he did repeatedly to himself and those who were closest to him. (Perhaps we just need a different word to replace the word "hate" in the above statement? I don't know...)

BTW, Amie said in her first post:


Loving someone where they are at, and responding with patience and stability - I can say that it at least worked for my own good.

I would love to hear how you and everyone else views how this plays out when we have to personally deal with such controvercial issues as brought up here. I think what she says is very key to the discussion.

Paige

[Amie]

I sure do carry a lot of baggage over the whole "hate the sin" thing, because in my experience, that is not how it played out. It was generally played out more like "I will love you when you stop practicing what I define as sin".

Isn't the current reality that God sees no one as a sinner anymore? Not the cheater, not the murderer, not the pork chop eater.. It was an "all or none" situation as I understand it. We have been made perfect in the eyes of God. Those who we may call "sinner" have already been redeemed to God and God doesn't see them that way. For that matter, if there is no Law, then how is there sin at all?

I think that I made this analogy somewhere else (scratching head), but if we are standing in a pile of fire ants (they have some painful bites and are aggressive), we tend to step out of it when we realize it. Do we then call the action of the ant a "sin"? It hurt! Do we get mad at the ant? Ever yell at the chair you just stubbed your toe on? Sometimes I do both, lol, but it's silly!

We judge the action of the ant as it pertains to us, rather than judging the heart of that ant and condemning it as not acceptable to God (aka a sinner).

We are able to visit a murderer in jail without contempt, and to demonstrate love to them because this person is not condemened in our eyes (because they are not condemned in the eyes of God). We are also protected there from the harm that they have proven themselves capable of doing. They are not what they do though, anymore than we are.

I think that an important step toward humanity openly accepting those who commit harm, or those who are different and try to push their views off on them, etc, is empathy.

Empathy is something that has been generationally lost and does not come natural to us. After each generation growing up where we receive immediate punishment and shame for a mistake, we have become genetically inclined not to offer or even consider empathy.

Jim Fay said something synonymous in his special, and offers solutions in his course. He suggests that parents practice an empathetic phrase "What a bummer", "Aww", "Bless your heart", etc that they are comfortable with and practice it. He said to take tons of post-it notes and paste the phrase everywhere in your home (even under the toilet lid, lol) to drill it into your mind. Then, we say the phrase before any consequence is dealt. It changes the brain's response to our words (and when I tried it, it changed my response as well - I love it!) - all for the better. The child no longer sees the parent as the source of their problem, or as a source of shame. (Thank you Ed for ever bringing Fay to my attention!)

I'm wondering if we could apply similar to all people in our lives. Even "on purposes" have consequences and we can all relate to that kind of suffering.

Amie

[Amie]

Also, whether or not homosexuality, or plural marriage is self-destructive is always debatable (regardless of which side of the issue I land on).

When do those things become our business?

Amie

[Paige]

When do those things become our business?

I would say probably when we are invited in. Right now I'm not personally involved in such a situation. I do wonder how I would respond if I had to personally deal w/it. I did tangle a time or two w/some men who were espousing the virtues of polygyny. I wasn't a pretty picture :eek:

Paige

[Infinite Grace]

Also, whether or not homosexuality, or plural marriage is self-destructive is always debatable (regardless of which side of the issue I land on).

When do those things become our business?

Amie

I think that is the bottom line. Is it our business?

Let's take polygyny (the one male- multiple female form of polygamy) for example. If the wives have no problem with it, and the husband has set up some form of financial support (and the wives agree with that), then what business is that of ours?

If two people of the same sex have a relationship, what business is that of mine? But if one comes to me and says something like "I feel like this relationship is harming me, what should I do?" I would tell him/her that he/she should get out of that relationship. If someone was in a homosexual relationship and their partner beat them so bad they had to go into the hospital; was that relationship harmful to him? Your darn right it was. And he should get out of it. In addition, if someone came to me and said that he thought homosexuality was wrong, and wanted to change, I would pray with him for that change. Otherwise, I am keeping my nose out of it.

[Lauri]

Amie you wrote:
I sure do carry a lot of baggage over the whole "hate the sin" thing, because in my experience, that is not how it played out. It was generally played out more like "I will love you when you stop practicing what I define as sin".

Isn't the current reality that God sees no one as a sinner anymore? Not the cheater, not the murderer, not the pork chop eater.. It was an "all or none" situation as I understand it. We have been made perfect in the eyes of God. Those who we may call "sinner" have already been redeemed to God and God doesn't see them that way. For that matter, if there is no Law, then how is there sin at all?

Bravo I couldn't agree more, and so well said I have nothing more to add! :clap2:

Lauri

[kevinbeck]

Interesting converastion.

In the church I grew up in, we were taught that if a couple divorced for any reason besides sexual infidelity the could not remarry. If they divorced for sexual infidelity, then the "guilty party" had to remain unmarried while the "innocent party" could remarry.

(Of course, this was taught by people who had never experienced divorce firsthand.)

Anyway...it led to the ridiculous position that while you couldn't remarry if you committed adultery, you could remarry if you killed your spouse. :confused:

Uh, ok.

Issues of sexuality are touchy (no pun intended). They are so personal and our identities are so wrapped up in sexuality. Maybe instead of asking questions about "homosexuality" we would be better off befriending people. We might get a real education by talking to a friend about themselves rather than talking about "issues" in the abstract.

It seems to me that we might do well to be accused of "being friends of gays and lesbians" like Jesus was accused of being friends of prostitutes and tax collectors.

Just as a side note...I have never met anyone who could help who they found attractive.

Blessings,
Kevin

[christyG]

Hey all, just caught on to this thread and thought I'd chime in.

My brother is gay. Well at least we all believe him to be. He tells his friends he is and seems to live that lifestyle, but he has NEVER spoken to anyone of us in the family about it. I have quite a large family, 4 brothers and 2 sisters, all half-siblings to me. I am the baby and the only child from both my mother and father. Kinda like the Brady Bunch plus one.:)

Anyway we have a sort-of military like policy of Don't Ask -- Don't Tell. No one has come out and asked my brother if he was gay and he has not told anyone he was. It is sad that he feels he cannot talk about this part of his life with us. And I think that most of us are just afraid of how we would handle the actualization that we just avoid it.

Fullfilled view or not, some baggage from "pre-realization indoctrination" is hard to drop. However, I can say I love my big brother with all of my heart and I can forsee nothing that he can do that would make me not love him. Maybe just repeating this will be enough to help us through the awckward times.

Christy

[davo]

Just as a side note...I have never met anyone who could help who they found attractive.
Hi Kevin,

I hear 100% what you are saying here, however, even THAT can be seen as somewhat offensive, i.e., being considered as being in a position of needing someone's "help" -- if you know what I mean.

[Amie]

I started this thread along the lines of accepting folks where they are - specifically the folks who want to "save our souls". I am amazed at how much it has evolved, touching on a variety "unacceptables".


It seems to me that we might do well to be accused of "being friends of gays and lesbians" like Jesus was accused of being friends of prostitutes and tax collectors.

Here-here!

I saw myself as an outsider when I was very young, and embraced other outsiders (including gay people). My son is in 7th grade and has a friend who is a lesbian. They had been friends for a bit before she told him. He said to the effect "Wow, you're not any different than anyone else!" I guess she really seemed the same since they both like girls :), lol! I'm really happy that my son is so accepting.

Wasn't OT reference to homosexual abomination because of the whole importance of protecting Israel's bloodline? Paul seemed to feel that sex between men was "recompense meet" for what for him (and any straight person) was unnatural.


I hear 100% what you are saying here, however, even THAT can be seen as somewhat offensive, i.e., being considered as being in a position of needing someone's "help" -- if you know what I mean.

Wow, that can touch on sexuality gay or straight. How am I seeing myself, for example, if I say that I can't help being attracted to my husband - as if attraction were something to inhibit.


I can say I love my big brother with all of my heart and I can forsee nothing that he can do that would make me not love him.

Have you ever told him this? My siblings aren't gay, but I can see for myself how I don't often let them know how much I love them.

Amie

[Barry]

When we look at what happened Sodom many identify the issue as clearly homosexuality. Had the "men" or "angles" been female and the men of the city were after them then the problem would not have been homosexuality but attempted gang-rape. Somehow "gang-rape" got lost in importance to homosexuality since the angles were "men". Now this is not necessarily the case with everyone who reads the text and some may wish to oppose the thought that it was anything but "homosexuality" that was the problem but it is often the case things are read into the text that are not necessarily there.

How strong is the case here concerning homosexuality being the reason that God destroyed Sodom? Peter's statements on the subject are not very conclusive.

Ezk 16:49
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of the bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

One of the largest texts we have on why God destroyed Sodom and not a word about homosexuality. Interesting! They were prideful had plenty and didn't help the needy.

Now I'm not saying that there are no verses to cover the subject but do believe that many of the verses are read through presumption of guilt and a presumption of evil through years of conditioning.
The same can be said for almost any subject that touches on the subject of sexuality wherein one's conditioning is being challenged. That's why I usually don't bother to talk about it at all.

I will say this and no more: IMHO
A greater focus needs to be brought to the quality of the relationship in question as opposed to just the type of relationship (In the realm of adults of course). Herein is perhaps a better guideline of right and wrong.
Is there honestly?
Is there commitment to the partnership?
Are the issues of what constitutes loyalty mutually understood and respected?
Do they build each other up or tear each other apart and belittle and demean?
How do they attempt to resolve their issues?
Is the problem a big ego trip?
Are the expectations beyond what is realistic?
Can you be "wrong"? Can your partner be "wrong"?
ECT ECT.
I'm not defending any type of lifestyle, I'm saying that contrary to popular belief we may still be missing the greater issues because of years of conditioning on a very touchy subject.
Love Barry

[Amie]

A greater focus needs to be brought to the quality of the relationship in question as opposed to just the type of relationship. Herein is perhaps a better guideline of right and wrong.
Amen! and Amen again!

[Amie]

Barry,

Speaking of Sodom, I heard that the sin was that they didn't do unto their neighbor as they would have done to themselves from a Rabbi once. Makes sense to me, what do you think?

Amie