respect of persons

[Laren]

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

respect: "favortism"


Wondering what you all think of this verse. I have seen many say that it means God deals with all men the same way. All have to go through a death to self, judgment to see life. Life is only "through" the cross. All will have to be baptized with fire.

I question this. Did not Noah, receive different treatment than the those who died in the flood. Were not the "chosen" apostles given eyes to see, while apostate Israel didnt'.

And what about those baptized "for the dead".

What about us in the age of grace? Aren't we seen as different than those of old?

What are your thoughts?

[immortalson]

Interesting question, Laren.

I think that in this context God was speaking that there is no difference in His eyes between Jews and Gentiles - that he would reward and punish each the same - in other words, He didn't favor the Jews over the Gentiles.

I think had Noah behaved as those who died, he would have died as well. The apsotles were given a specific function to perform on the earth, not that they were better, or worse than wnyone else, just called to a different task.

As far as those baptised for the dead, I have a lot of thoughts on this. It is almost as though they were called to "Stand in the Gap" in order to spare them. They had a specific call as well....?

I am not sure about us in the "age of grace" as I am not so familiar with your doctrine to know the principle behind the concept.

All submitted IMHO:o

Back at cha,
Barb
http://www.immortalson.com

[Laren]

I was thinking on the way to work, God chose mankind for different roles, but his view, his view toward mankind is the same.

Both those chosen for different tasks whether perceived as good tasks, or not, were LOVED.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Also, do you guys think God still chooses different roles for us? If all is fulfilled, what role do we play?

Did God choose for you all to come to faith in the completed work of Christ? Why do some see it, others dont?

[loveroftruth]

I heard someone do a “word” break down on it and that “Persons” in this scripture actually means “masks”

In other words, God does not respect the masks we wear (who we pretend to be)

[Barry]

Hi Laren, (and all)
Here are some thoughts:


Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

respect: "favortism"
There is no respect of persons in including all in sin. No one would be justified through the deeds of the self defined ego.
There would be no respect of persons in including all in mercy.


Wondering what you all think of this verse. I have seen many say that it means God deals with all men the same way. All have to go through a death to self, judgment to see life. Life is only "through" the cross. All will have to be baptized with fire.

The baptism of fire was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem.

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and [I]begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Notice in Mark, no mention of "and with fire" and so no mention of judgment upon those of "Judea" that were coming out to him. Same thing again in John where he mentions "baptism with the Holy Spirit" but does not include "and with fire". There too no mention of the "wrath to come" and the "fire" that would burn up the chaff.
Compare this with:

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

This of course does not relate to a post-mortem sentence. But rather to the "second death" that being the end of the old covenant creature of a context of life in shadows and figures.



Did not Noah, receive different treatment than the those who died in the flood.

Yes, but this is treatment concerning God's [I]plan.
Also it is told in "ego" terms to self defined, "ego" creatures. That meaning that God is seen to be against the "evil" of the self defined old covenant person of "good and evil". This is plan determined treatment.

Plan determined treatment has to be seen within the greater scope of "revealed truth" of God's love without condition. To lock all under sin and so then undermine the ego, with mercy upon all. Otherwise man could never really see who he really is as the offspring of God!
Someone has said something like: "Dogs don't make kittens. So what does that say about us as the offspring of God?"
Sin had to abound before much more grace could abound.

Humankind could not see love before he experienced the seeming absence of it though his self defined ego. We had to play as children with shadows and figures before we could relate to the substance.

Just a thought,
Barry

[Amie]

Did not Noah, receive different treatment than the those who died in the flood. Were not the "chosen" apostles given eyes to see, while apostate Israel didnt'.

And what about those baptized "for the dead".

Does a teacher call only his/her favorites to the front of the class? It might appear that they are favored to the children who feel excluded, but that doesn't make it true.

Was Pharaoh favored?


Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." Ex. 9:16

He served God, and lost family members, his city suffered horrible loss and the story of his defeat is eternal. He is compared to the "dead" that they were being "baptized for".

In Romans 9 Paul seems to go into the idea that we are beyond questioning the will of God, but I think that there's more to it.


Rom 9:20 Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Isa. 29:16
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? Jer. 18:6

We are the ones who perceive that one vessel was to honor and one to dishonor. Who is without honor? Paul is assuring I think in saying:


Rom 9:25 As also He says in Hosea, I will call those Not My people, My people! And those not beloved, Beloved! Hosea 2:23
Rom 9:26 "And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there they will be called, "Sons of the Living God." LXX-Hos. 2:1; MT-Hos. 2:23

Who are the people of God? Noah? Pharaoh? Paul? What made Noah "righteous"? Answer:


Gen 6:8 And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

Look at this:


Gen 6:5 And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.
Gen 6:6 And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved to His heart.

It doesn't say that everyone was wicked except for Noah. It says that out of the wicked folks, God chose Noah to work reconciliation through. Noah was righteous, because God extended that to him, not on his own accord.

God may have softened Noah's heart that he might receive what God was telling him, but he wasn't the favorite and then chosen.

A question entering my mind is, "Why do we see ourselves differently?"

Amie

[Laren]

Hi Laren, (and all)
Here are some thoughts:


There is no respect of persons in including all in sin. No one would be justified through the deeds of the self defined ego.
There would be no respect of persons in including all in mercy.



The baptism of fire was the destruction of Judea and Jerusalem.

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and [I]begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Notice in Mark, no mention of "and with fire" and so no mention of judgment upon those of "Judea" that were coming out to him. Same thing again in John where he mentions "baptism with the Holy Spirit" but does not include "and with fire". There too no mention of the "wrath to come" and the "fire" that would burn up the chaff.
Compare this with:

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

This of course does not relate to a post-mortem sentence. But rather to the "second death" that being the end of the old covenant creature of a context of life in shadows and figures.

Barry

Wow Barry, i never noticed that before, re: when talking to those willing to repent and be baptized; that they would be baptized with Holy Ghost, and those unwilling; baptized with fire.

thanks

[Amie]

Laren,

That's why in the seed thread I was trying to work out whether there was a single fire from which some were saved from suffering within (where I lean right now), or two fires.


Act 2:1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one mind in the same place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven, as being borne along by a violent wind! And it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed, and it sat on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave ability to them to speak.

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

That's why in the seed thread I was trying to work out whether there was a single fire from which some were saved from suffering within (where I lean right now), or two fires.



Amie

Hope i'm understanding your question/thought Amie,

Seems to me , that the fire the first century saints went through was a fiery trial of their faith. This trial, was the "time in the wilderness", the "time before the flood", and was prior to the second death fire.

With Noah, his trial of fire testing his faith was before the flood waters came. The persecution by the "non builders". Then the flood came, the second death fire. He was in it, but not hurt by it. So too were the first century saitns persecuted first, then the second death fire came, but they were not hurt as they were covered by the blood of Christ.

So if I am getting your question, I'm not sure if the fiery trial of the saints was the same fire, just at different times, as judgment had to begin at the house of God first, and then judgment by fire for the "hardened" later.

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear (at the second death fire) and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

As far as second death fire,

Isa 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



Here is an interesting article re: judment by fire for the saints, and judgment by fire for the rest. It is not from a fulfilled viewpoint, but a futuristic, and I don't necessarily agree completely with the author, but does bring up good points.

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm


:) :)

[Amie]

Laren,

If the fire began to be kindled via pentacost, it will have spread in the Saints via the Gospel. It will have been the accomplishment of the Gospel which actually condemned the folks in Jerusalem (they not having received it). Paul and the Saints were reigning and ruling (passing judgment) with Christ for the interim. It was that judgment which befell the folks in Jerusalem. Christ came in the Kingdom (the first century church), and fire rained down from Heaven (through the Kingdom). It will have been a single, purifying fire, purging the chaff and saving the already pure (purified via Jesus). I could be wrong, this is the way its' striking me right now -- BUT, I AM listening to and considering your feedback!

I'll read those articles though, asap.

(I also think that Noah etc were not favored and then chosen, but chosen and then placed in the spotlight. Hmm, "holy" means "set apart"..)

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

If the fire began to be kindled via pentacost, it will have spread in the Saints via the Gospel. It will have been the accomplishment of the Gospel which actually condemned the folks in Jerusalem (they not having received it). Paul and the Saints were reigning and ruling (passing judgment) with Christ for the interim. It was that judgment which befell the folks in Jerusalem. Christ came in the Kingdom (the first century church), and fire rained down from Heaven (through the Kingdom). It will have been a single, purifying fire, purging the chaff and saving the already pure (purified via Jesus). I could be wrong, this is the way its' striking me right now -- BUT, I AM listening to and considering your feedback!

I'll read those articles though, asap.

(I also think that Noah etc were not favored and then chosen, but chosen and then placed in the spotlight. Hmm, "holy" means "set apart"..)

Amie

What you said above Amie really makes sense to me, especially as I have come to a better understanding of Romans 9-11.

What do you think the "judgment must begin at the house of God" mean?

[Amie]

Laren,

I think that as they were charged to deliver judgement to others, that they were to deliver the same judgement to themselves. However, because they "obeyed the gospel", they were saved from experiencing the "wrath".

The law found all of those bound to it, guilty. No human being could keep it righteously outside of existing as Christ (they were Christ on earth as members of his own body).

What do you think?

Amie